Re: Secondary Elements

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:19 pm

Dr. ARM wrote:Ariens are stubborn and headstrong. Earth seems like a solid choice.

See what I did there?

Also...

If Libra's Water, then Gemini's Fire. That leaves Aquarius with Earth.

They generally associate cardinals with fire, fixed with earth, and mutable with air. hmm

**Dinny** on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:00 pm

PapiChuloLeon wrote:
Dr. ARM wrote:Ariens are stubborn and headstrong. Earth seems like a solid choice.

See what I did there?

Also...

If Libra's Water, then Gemini's Fire. That leaves Aquarius with Earth.
They generally associate cardinals with fire, fixed with earth, and mutable with air. hmm

Bing! Correct. There are exceptions, but you're right. Mutable seems like it could be air or water, though. But cardinals/fire and fixed/earth are virtually inarguable.

MKing on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:06 pm

Aries with earth, really? I just don't see it, at all. Yes, they are stubborn and headstrong, but so are Leos. The reason why I would pick Aries as water is because there attitudes and emotions changes constantly....like the movement of water. Also, there not as patience and slow pace moving as earth traits.

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:47 pm

Dinny wrote:
PapiChuloLeon wrote:
Dr. ARM wrote:Ariens are stubborn and headstrong. Earth seems like a solid choice.

See what I did there?

Also...

If Libra's Water, then Gemini's Fire. That leaves Aquarius with Earth.
They generally associate cardinals with fire, fixed with earth, and mutable with air. hmm

Bing!
Correct. There are exceptions, but you're right. Mutable seems like it
could be air or water, though. But cardinals/fire and fixed/earth are
virtually inarguable.

The first three signs are the greatest at
expressing what that element and quality is about.

Aries - The most fiery and pioneering.
Taurus - The most stubborn sign in the entire wheel.
Gemini - No explanation needed.

We can make a case for Cancer being the most watery one, too.

MKing wrote:Aries with earth, really? I just don't see it, at all. Yes, they are stubborn and headstrong, but so are Leos. The reason why I would pick Aries as water is because there attitudes and emotions changes constantly....like the movement of water. Also, there not as patience and slow pace moving as earth traits.

Aries and sagis are a mess. Good luck sorting them out.

**Dr. ARM** on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:49 pm

PapiChuloLeon wrote:They generally associate cardinals with fire, fixed with earth, and mutable with air. hmm

On the old forum, I organized secondary elements by focusing on those qualities.

If you do that, you'll wind up dumping Earth on Scorpio and Fire on Cancer.

Are you okay with that?

On a further note, this method turns Aries into an Air secondary.

MKing wrote:Aries with earth, really? I just don't see it, at all. Yes, they are stubborn and headstrong, but so are Leos. The reason why I would pick Aries as water is because there attitudes and emotions changes constantly....like the movement of water. Also, there not as patience and slow pace moving as earth traits.

Do you propose we make them both Water secondaries?

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Dr. ARM wrote:
PapiChuloLeon wrote:They generally associate cardinals with fire, fixed with earth, and mutable with air. hmm

On the old forum, I organized secondary elements by focusing on those qualities.

If you do that, you'll wind up dumping Earth on Scorpio and Fire on Cancer.

Are you okay with that?

On a further note, this method turns Aries into an Air secondary.

I don't use that. Scorpios are earth like to me since they are stubborn from their fixed quality. I always thought of fire as their secondary element.

**Dr. ARM** on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:16 pm

Under the Qualities method:

Aries: Air

Taurus: Water

Gemini: Water

Cancer: Fire

Leo: Earth

Virgo: Air

Libra: Fire

Scorpio: Earth

Sagittarius: Water

Capricorn: Fire

Aquarius: Earth

Pisces: Air

**mi-cuit** on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:19 pm

lilith wrote:I think I'd have to switch it to earth with Gemini and fire with Aquarius. I'm biased because of the people I know though. The Gems I know are so slow and stubborn. They know what they like and are hard to negotiate with and this is with a variety of moons. I can also see Ariens with earth, too.

I don't think that the elements have to be divided up equally. If you see four signs with earth and two with water for example, so be it. If you focus too much on perfect numbers, things will get too muddled up. Virgo is kind of a mystery anyway when it comes to ruling planets. They say they are earth, but Virgo and Capricorn have always seemed "air-y" to me and Capricorn is considered as an air sign in some systems. I might even go as far as to say every earth sign has air as its secondary element, but I'd have to think about Taurus for a while.

I second all of the above. I also agree with ARM that it just doesn't seem plausible to link Cancer with Fire and Scorpio with Fire. It's interesting to me how stubbornness is coming out to be the most recognizable characteristic of Fixed signs and has sort of been linked to Earth. I definitely agree that it's the most prominent characteristic of Taurus given that the other fixed signs continue processing instead of just digging their heels in. Taurus needs thinking otherwise it's be settled with double Earth based on the above premises.

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:23 pm

Dr. ARM wrote:Under the Qualities method:

Aries: Air

Taurus: Water

Gemini: Water

Cancer: Fire

Leo: Earth

Virgo: Air

Libra: Fire

Scorpio: Earth

Sagittarius: Water

Capricorn: Fire

Aquarius: Earth

Pisces: Air

I like Leo with Earth the most. They're stubborn, organized, and status seeking. Earth sign like traits.

I can see Sagi with Water since Vedic AZZtrology considers Jupiter a watery planet.

Everyone already knows what I think of Taurus.

Geminis have that multiple personality disorder and seem to shift moods fast. Water is cool.

Virgo is Air. Yup by planet they are.

**Dr. ARM** on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:25 pm

That list is what I finally settled on way back when, but it didn't seem like anyone agreed.

I'm not against Lilith's proposal to disregard equal distribution, either.

**mi-cuit** on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:31 pm

I think if we define the characteristics of every secondary element, we'll have an easier time of it.

I don't agree with Aries:Air, Cancer:Fire, and Libra:Fire. I have a hard time seeing it. Libra is rather status-seeking too.

MKing on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:32 pm

Dr. ARM wrote:Under the Qualities method:

Aries: Air

Taurus: Water

Gemini: Water

Cancer: Fire

Leo: Earth

Virgo: Air

Libra: Fire

Scorpio: Earth

Sagittarius: Water

Capricorn: Fire

Aquarius: Earth

Pisces: Air

That looks good! I like idea of Cancers being fire, it just seem right, in my book, Now that I think about it Leo's secondary is kinda earth-like, they are the most stubborn of the fire signs, also, they have the most patience of the three, as well. Aries with air or water is passable, but, Sag as water makes no sense, I guess Sag has to be the default, like Taurus.

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Here is my list:

Aries - Air

Taurus - Water

Gemini - Fire

Cancer - Earth

Leo - Earth

Virgo - Air

Libra - Water

Scorpio - Fire

Sagittarius - Water

Capricorn - Fire

Aquarius - Earth

Pisces - Air

I use equal distribution.

MKing on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:44 pm

mi-cuit wrote:Libra:Fire. I have a hard time seeing it. Libra is rather status-seeking too.

Hmmm......true true. Aquarius should be fire, and Gemini/water. If Capricorn is fire, than Aquarius should be fire, as well. Those two signs are tooooo much alike, and they share a lot of traits, also, that could have something to do with them sharing Saturn

I believe.

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:58 pm

MKing wrote:
mi-cuit wrote:Libra:Fire. I have a hard time seeing it. Libra is rather status-seeking too.

Hmmm......true true. Aquarius should be fire, and Gemini/water. If Capricorn is fire, than Aquarius should be fire, as well. Those two signs are tooooo much alike, and they share a lot of traits, also, that could have something to do with them sharing Saturn I believe.

AZZquarius EARTH!!!!!!!!!1111

MKing on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:20 pm

PapiChuloLeon wrote:
MKing wrote:
mi-cuit wrote:Libra:Fire. I have a hard time seeing it. Libra is rather status-seeking too.

Hmmm......true true. Aquarius should be fire, and Gemini/water. If Capricorn is fire, than Aquarius should be fire, as well. Those two signs are tooooo much alike, and they share a lot of traits, also, that could have something to do with them sharing Saturn I believe.
AZZquarius EARTH!!!!!!!!!1111

Aquarius could be earth........but that would give Libra water or fire, Libra is neither one of them. So, Aquarius is fire.

Also, I know Libra is opposite to Aries, but I never really got the concept/ides of Libra being a cardinal. They are a bit indecisive/people pleaser to be a cardinal.

PapiChuloLeon on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:33 pm

MKing wrote:
PapiChuloLeon wrote:
MKing wrote:
mi-cuit wrote:Libra:Fire. I have a hard time seeing it. Libra is rather status-seeking too.

Hmmm......true true. Aquarius should be fire, and Gemini/water. If Capricorn is fire, than Aquarius should be fire, as well. Those two signs are tooooo much alike, and they share a lot of traits, also, that could have something to do with them sharing Saturn I believe.
AZZquarius EARTH!!!!!!!!!1111

Aquarius could be earth........but that would give Libra water or fire, Libra is neither one of them. So, Aquarius is fire.

Also, I know Libra is opposite to Aries, but I never really got the concept/ides of Libra being a cardinal. They are a bit indecisive/people pleaser to be a cardinal.

The Libras I knew were sensitive kids. Seeing crap from everyone's perspective gave them that considerate feel.

**mi-cuit** on Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:40 pm

MKing wrote:
PapiChuloLeon wrote:
MKing wrote:
mi-cuit wrote:Libra:Fire. I have a hard time seeing it. Libra is rather status-seeking too.

Hmmm......true true. Aquarius should be fire, and Gemini/water. If Capricorn is fire, than Aquarius should be fire, as well. Those two signs are tooooo much alike, and they share a lot of traits, also, that could have something to do with them sharing Saturn I believe.
AZZquarius EARTH!!!!!!!!!1111

Aquarius could be earth........but that would give Libra water or fire, Libra is neither one of them. So, Aquarius is fire.

Also, I know Libra is opposite to Aries, but I never really got the concept/ides of Libra being a cardinal. They are a bit indecisive/people pleaser to be a cardinal.

A fact that I've always felt but never really put into words before reading the posts Leon linked to is that Libras may give the feeling that they are compromising and taking everybody else's opinions into consideration, but when push comes to shove, they do exactly as they please and manage to drag quite a few people along. That's cardinal for you.

lilith on Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:42 pm

mi-cuit wrote:
A fact that I've always felt but never really put into words before reading the posts Leon linked to is that Libras may give the feeling that they are compromising and taking everybody else's opinions into consideration, but when push comes to shove, they do exactly as they please and manage to drag quite a few people along. That's cardinal for you.

Very true, mi-cuit!